Sunday, May 5, 2013

IS THIS MONEY

Do you want to put this in a jar and bury it in your backyard? If someone broke into your home at least they couldn't take it. That may be a positive, but today fiat is made to disappear with a keystroke. If you doubt that easily happen, then just go to one of the thousands of MF Global customers and ask how their money and paper assets were taken. It wasn't hauled out in the back of dump trucks. BILLIONS were erased from their lives with a keystroke and nary a whimper in the media. Thousands of people robbed in broad daylight and not even a couple of sacks to carry off the loot was needed. Just a keystroke by some lackey in a JPM back room. CONfidence and trust......the foundations of any fiat system based upon a promise.....a promise your paper money and paper assets are backed by the rule of law. NOT ANYMORE. That has all changed Cyprus was the clarion call for many more sheeple that believed a system based upon law would be there for them if they just trusted their government. Well you can see how that turned out for them. We talk about it but for tens of thousands of Cypriots their lack of understanding of what kind of collapse the World is in allowed them to be deluded into leaving their fiat in a system that never had their interests protected. 

Now we have entered into an even more fascinating and dangerous phase of this collapse. The digital monetization of debt. This year we will roughly monetize about 1 Trillion in government debt in the U.S. alone. We are actually running a higher yearly debt than 1 Trillion when all of our unfunded liabilities are factored in.....much higher. Back in 1980 when Volker took on inflation we had about 1 Trillion in TOTAL debt. That's right... we are running more debt yearly now than the total national debt was when Volker stepped in to raise interest rates. Can you imagine what would happen if interest rates are raised on a total debt today that may be as high as 100 Trillion if you count the unfunded mandates? 

What choice do they have now? Debasement of the currency with unending money printing or raising interest rates and creating instant depression. Until the costs of essentials begins to get out of control and shortages become unmanageable then they will print. Oh...they will jawbone they are going to have an exit strategy and that digital printing can be controlled but mathematics dictate otherwise. NO STOPPING. Look what's happening around us. I've never seen anything like this in my study of history except perhaps before WW2.....this is worse.......gl pollyannas







76 comments:

  1. One thing is becoming clear to me, and that is the equity markets are the only place to be now, and they will not be allowed to crash or even correct in any meaningful way for the rest of 2013. As long as Ben keeps printing to the tune of $85 billion per month, that money only has one home.

    I like Doctrader's targets he shared in another thread, where we'll see new highs by Sept/Oct this year, and that may be the time I may go to 100% cash. Until then, time to buy AAPL, GOOG, AMZN, and the rest, no joke.

    Also, folks like Ron Paul, Jim Rogers, Sinclair, Faber, Schiff, etc, I know they make a lot of sense with their predictions, but I think it's time for some **** to finally happen, otherwise it's simply the boy who cried wolf. The longer they keep predicting doom and nothing happens, the less credibility, IMO.

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    1. Yes bud that's what you're supposed to think.

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  2. Hey, Bud. Just want to remind you that Jim Rogers has been saying this pullback in gold is healthy, there has been no meaningful pullback in over 12 yrs. Also he is on record that commodities bull markets last about 18 yrs. Personally think there are two economies...no doom for the few; lots of doom for the many. That being said, they have held this together far longer than I would have imagined possible. Also, they have been tauting gold since it was $250 so it has held up certainly better than anything else that I am aware of. Best to all. Sis

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    1. yes sister...that gold is in one helluva bear market......hehehehehe.....

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  3. The trend is pretty clear from what I can see, has been for the last 4 years, and first 5 months of this year.

    I think the choices are simple. You can stay out of the casino entirely, which is probably the best option. You can short the markets thinking they are overvalued and get into losing trades like miners, and lose your shirt. Or, ride the trend and take advantage of the many opportunities to make money, which is what I'm currently doing.

    Just to give you an example, I bought some AAPL shares around $395 when it hit those lows a couple of weeks ago and recently sold for a nice profit at $442. I'm using the proceeds to make the equivalent of 3 months of mortgage payments on my house to reduce the principle. That to me is a far better strategy than getting stuck in losing trades and hoping and waiting for doom to arrive, which may not happen for another 1, 2, or 5 more years.

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    1. Really bud?? Did you post that here?? If so when.....otherwise someone might just think that you are one of those people on the net that if they post a trade (after the fact) that it must be true.......we've had some others before you like that and they never had a losing trade either......but I hope you stay in the casino......and as usual budfox...gl

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  4. Oh, I have had my share of losing trades, more than I can remember. Lost thousands trading the miners, shorting AMZN on two different instances, shorting Whole Foods last year, etc. But I've managed to have some winners along the way, too. The recent AAPL play was nothing more than an earnings gamble that paid off. It could've very well fallen to $350, but it didn't and I got lucky.

    Kli, do you allow yourself to think that maybe your timing is off a little bit? Or that perhaps any impending collapse won't be as severe as you predict? I mean, anything is possible, right? It seems to me, with all due respect, you have a singular view, and there's no room for compromise or making slight adjustments along the way. The last 4 years should've at least shown you that sometimes one can be wrong, and the mark of a good trader is to realize that and make the necessary changes to take advantage of the opportunities.

    Not trying to pick a fight, just saying it's good to be open minded and consider all possibilities.

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    1. bud...from a trading perspective at this point in time OF COURSE my timing is off. Does that mean I I don't look at all options....of course I do. Hindsight is 20/20 and for me to pretend there wasn't a better strategy a year ago would be foolhardy. Let's just say I had managed to trade the first year of the miner takedown to a new high a year ago and made a trading error by going back full vested after the first takedown. Usually I held cash for even more takedown. I still would have been killed in the trade but not as bad. I chose the miners because I HOPE the system stays intact. If it does then the miners will be fine. If not its paper and most of us will be robbed of our paper assets in one way or another. The miners for me are NOT a doom play. A true doom play is to bunker down with self sufficiency. Your view of this nations vulnerability to its own violations of nature apparently is not shared by myself. We are killing millions of innocents around the world. In tunisia egypt syria lebanon iraq afghanistan somalia .......there is something called blowback and we don't have to have a total doomsday scenario to exact a toll for this behavior. I repeated multiple times that bullion gold and silver were the BEST plays and was allowed two extra years to accumulate.....that I am grateful for and help to ameliorate my "paper" balance. AGAIN....if we DONT get a TOTAL breakdown of the system then miners "should" perform well.....

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    2. bud when you are playing a rigged game then you have to take your medicine without whining. I am fascinated watching the BEAR of all bears play out. I have trepidation knowing that many people will suffer because of OUR failures to protect our democracy for our children. We were a selfish generation that ALLOWED itself to be brainwashed. Maybe nature's laws violations will bring down the greatest criminal cabal in history........stay tuned.

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  5. Kli I assume you saw the talk Jefferey Sachs gave at the Fed meeting
    http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2013/05/gold-daily-and-silver-weekly-chart.html
    The video at the bottom of the page.

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    1. thanks tom i put it above
      I'm shocked that a mainstream economist would be this blunnt

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  6. Here is an analogy:

    Say I am walking on abandoned railroad tracks that have not been used in decades. I hear a train whistle and see a train racing towards me. What am I going to do? I'm going to jump off the damn tracks.

    I agree with what Kliguy writes. It makes sense to me. But right now, a different reality is taking place, and that is what I feel we have to play. How long will it last?? Who knows.

    I am looking to buy Intel if it falls to the 22.50'ish level. I will post my buy should that target be reached.

    Good luck everyone.

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  7. "If anyone think that the system will survive then of course that individual is at the wrong website. I preach doom because history teaches us that man is prone to greed and failure when solutions based on an alternate reality are attempted. The destruction of retirements, freedom, and purchasing power which will soon follow. It will make many who are shunning today’s physical prices including the premiums ask the question their grandchildren will demand an answer to also: Why did I wait so long to think about buying physical gold and silver?"

    http://johngaltfla.com/wordpress/2013/05/06/as-the-precious-metals-paper-market-manipulates-the-physical-counterfeit-market-expands/

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  8. Excellent vid Tom...good to know that someone like Dr. Sachs is aware and speaking out..."utter criminality and financial fraud" agree with him, there is so much that it's hard to keep up. Massive bonuses and massive campaign contributions=massive corruption. Grrr.

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    1. Many top people are speaking out sister....NO ONE is listening......even within the FED their are critics......as long as the MSM controls the propaganda and the sheep are fed......the game will continue

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  9. Kli - I believe 100 trillion may be on the low side (sure it is if Obamacare becomes a long term reality). You also have state and local government debt. But if you throw in individual debt ($15-16 trillion) and corporate debt (about $32 trillion - lots to small businesses) you get to $150 trillion debt for all components of the country (govts, businesses individual)...

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    1. you're right inlet I didn't include Obamacare

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  10. Investors have redeemed $14 billion from the world’s largest gold ETF so far this year on fears the 12-year bull market in gold has ended.


    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/investors-pull-14-billion-gold-173004123.html

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    1. no one wants to own anything but physical now.....even the hedgees like Soros smell a rat at GLD

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  11. Embry: “Well, I’m not the least bit discouraged. I’m angry because the powers that be are conducting an absolute scorched earth policy to try to destroy this sector in the eyes of the investor.

    And it’s working to some extent because people who don’t understand what’s happening and do not have the true conviction necessary when things like this are going on are going to get knocked out of the box at exactly the wrong time. And that’s what’s happening.

    The fact is there isn’t one single thing that’s happened in the big picture since gold was $1,900 at the end of August in 2011, that is remotely negative for gold. I don’t care what aspect you look at. It’s been an absolute takedown because the US is scared to death of losing its reserve currency status or seeing its currency get annihilated.

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  12. enjoyed a beautiful day outside and am catching up while "listening to CNBS" (usually have it muted)....but DOES ANYONE ELSE listen to the increasingly shrillness of the talking heads trying to shill the market.....to me it reeks of desperation and almost comedic......what a gorgeous day finally to get outside.....more to come I hope and hopefully they give us another lala year......that is a bonus and I also hope (I obviously think the odds are virtually zero however) that the paper chasers have a casino to play in for the next few years.....playing the miners will remain my choice and all of you have to make yours......I will repeat ad nauseum......OWN PHYSICAL

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  13. Agree. Saw that the B(l)uffett of Omaha says equities, equities, equities--bonds are terrible so keep some cash and invest in equities only.

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    1. you know when they trot out Warren then they are really worried about a loss of CONfidence....my guess is they can't get any real buying in equities at these levels other than some HFT Algos playing patty-cake.....Mom and Pop are finished with the casino.......and smell a rat.....the big boyz are ready to make some money on the short side if they could just pull in some more weak hands here....the smaller hedges know its rigged and won't touch it at these prices......I'd say they're between a rock and a hard place now.......looks like some chop shop to come.....maybe even a nice correction.....as long as the fed prints the market's trend will stay intact....but don't discount the big boyz ripping it down for some short pocket change.......

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    2. I remember back in 09 when they took off all the short restrictions from the crash days......you knew what they were going to do......shorts have been one of the primary sources of liquidity for the big boyz.....without them there would be much smaller WS bonuses.......hehhehehehehhehe........ya gotta love these guys

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  14. Score one for the Corpocracy...... bunch of bought and paid for A$$holes!

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-06/senate-passes-online-sales-tax-bill

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  15. BREAKING: Adam VS. The Man Host Adam Kokesh to Lead Armed March on DC July 4th 'To Put Gov't on Notice'. Pay attention to this developing story......WILL NOT end well....but its a matter of time only before these events explode

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  16. “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”


    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  17. bleeding miners hard today but not RIC or CGR.....surely the can slice some more flesh of them too/////

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    1. Oh sure now that I don't have RIC anymore...... but no worries I do have CGR! What a piece of poo.....

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  18. You beat me to it! Hehehehe.....The first video above is worth the 20 minutes and definatly worth sharing with fence sitters and uninformed!

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-06/story-inequality-us-past-present-and-future

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  19. ARNA DEA is in....time for fireworks...

    Kli,

    I had losing trades, have a couple right now that I didn't set stops on and still in with loss...the casino is a cruel mistress...lips of honey but Henckel fingernails..

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    1. chuck i will refer you to something that if have said many years ago and still will say.......This is the BEAR of all bears and when it is finished most likely none of us in the casino will have a two matches to rub together. to ignore what i said is at your own risk. gl

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    2. I like that number, from what I'm hearing Doc's didn't want to mess with VVUS and phenfen derivative...

      right now the shorts will be in for epic struggle...but once launched in 30 days it's going to run..
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nszR0tfp4Es

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  20. Is this news being suppressed (again)?: http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/3-explosions-heard-in-Tehran-near-missile-facility-312369

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  21. dang, this mkt just keeps chugging along. not sure which is worse, shorting the mkt or owning miners. luckily, I haven't shorted the mkt, but I do own a basket of horrors in the likes of ego, KGC and SSRI. bravo to the people that make some cash on this big rally. time will tell if this bubble will pop. good luck everyone

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  22. Hey, honest are you saying arna to $30? I have a small pos. Thx, I need all the help I can get. Cannot believe slw down so much today as silver really wasn't off that much.

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    1. the rewards are coming...I think this is once in a decade stocks...the prescriptions numbers will drive the price...they are now 65 million richer off milestone payment for getting DEA from Easai......their marketing partner...

      good luck sister, fight the good fight...

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  23. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-07/syria-traffic-goes-dark-country-disappears-internet

    Not Good.........

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    1. prolly just down for repairs......hehehehhehhehehe

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  24. Rudemood, the bubble will pop eventually, just not anytime soon is my opinion. The printing will stop or simply not work, but until then, why not take advantage of the opportunities?

    There has been skepticism at every level (12K, 13K, 14K, and now 15K), but as you said, it keeps chugging along. You can make money in virtually every sector (tech, financials, defensive stocks, telecoms, energy, etc) everything but miners. That particular sector has been targeted for complete and utter destruction, unlike anything I've ever seen.

    I know I'm going to sound like a broken record, and anger Kli, but I have to ask yet again: Why would people continue to stay in a disastrous trade like the miners, when you can make money anywhere else in this market? Why not cut your losses right now? Heck, if folks sold their miner shares at Dow 14K (only a few weeks ago) and put the money in an ETF that tracks the Dow, you could've recovered a good chunk of your losses by now. I mean, at some point, in the face of such overwhelming evidence, doesn't it pay to at least re-evaluate one's strategy? If you want to stay with the miners and watch your shares go down everyday, why not hedge them buy going long the markets?

    Disclaimer: I'm not a troll, I'm not trying to upset anyone or rub any salt in anyone's wounds, I'm just puzzled why people would choose to lose money day after day, month after month, when they don't have to?

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  25. Bud.......I have lived through and traded through three bubbles.......the 1987 crash...the 2000 crash and the 2008 crash......the last two bubbles I had seen and warned everyone I could a year in advance.......no one listened then......so if you think your disagreement on whether this pig is a bubble disuades me on iota or whether I should be going long in this ponzi AT THIS STAGE......then think again.....NO ONE says YOU shouldn't be long in equities so PULEEZE do whatever you choose. There are many more important things than worrying about people that disagree with what I believe is coming soon......maybe a month maybe a year..but soon

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  26. "Disclaimer: I'm not a troll, I'm not trying to upset anyone or rub any salt in anyone's wounds, I'm just puzzled why people would choose to lose money day after day, month after month, when they don't have to?"

    Yeah and I'm packing a foot long.... LOL :)

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    1. hehehehe.........he's a very effective troll I admit but as long as he behaves I won't delete him

      take a look at this one we are in trouble

      http://blogdogcicle.blogspot.com/2013/05/russia-not-to-tolerate-further-israeli.html

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    2. Bet we don't yell Boooyah when this blows up

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  27. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-07/jeremy-grantham-we-have-been-conned

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  28. Because Bud its really about probabilities. At this point stocks may continue to rise but its a really low probability event, but certainly possible. Mining stocks have never been this cheap, sure they could get cheaper but again odds say they won't. Although the trade you have on has been correct, it says nothing about its continued profitability going forward. And thats all we have; to asses the best likely outcome going forward regardless of what has happened. So your question I think is valid and one that I ask myself almost daily! But like Kliguy I have invested/traded through several significant bubbles and watched several from a distance. Although one is never sure until after the fact this market has all the conditions of a late stage blow off. Now my question to you Bud is what will tell you that the ride in the stock market is over and time to get out? And maybe thats really what keeps me out of your trade; I would have no earthly idea what would tell me its time to get out given the signs I see that this move could end at anytime.

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    1. If you think you're in a bubble then you probably are......they CAN seemingly go on for longer than you think possible but when you look at them in hindsight they never have gone on very long......what's funny is that when you get closer to the cliff you will hear PLENTY of people saying how much further it can beyond and why.

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  29. gotta love the mkt euphoria. the mkt can never go down. hehe

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  30. I realize this is an opposition-free blog, and I get branded a troll for raising what I believe to be legitimate questions. That's fine, I can live with that, as long as my posts are allowed. I've never attacked anyone personally or spend my time trying to come up with ways to distract from the main discussion.

    It's just curious to me why people have certain methods and principles when it comes to trading and investing. From my experience, some folks are very disciplined in what they do, and once a certain position or trade goes bad or reaches a pre-determined loss threshold, they cut their losses and bail out. Others, whether due to being stubborn or sticking to their convictions, go down with the ship, while their accounts bleed dry. I used to be in the latter group, but learned my hard lessons during the dot.com crash, and I try to be more careful now with my money.

    The one fact that remains and is undisputed is that the pair trade (if you can call it that) of long miners/short (or neutral) equity markets has been a disaster over the past 4 years as we've seen one of the biggest moves in history. The fact that this is a ponzi scheme aided by the Fed's printing presses is also undisputed. However, that's the new reality in which we're living at the moment, and I accept it instead to trying to fight it.

    Bondguy, to answer your question, I also have no clue how long this will go on. Could we see Dow 20K in a few years? Sure, it's possible. And then maybe they'll crash it 30%, and take it back to 14K. Anything goes, and the only thing I'm doing is try to pick what I hope will be winning trades, take profits regularly, and slowly reduce my exposure, to the point that most of what's left will either be cash or house money, so when the inevitable take-down comes, I will be as ready as possible. Looking at the intermediate term (3-6 months), I can easily see new highs being made. There are plenty of geo-political events that could derail the "rally", or not. You are correct in that I'm playing the probabilities, and right now, I give it higher odds that the markets will be higher by Sept/Oct time frame.


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    1. You are totally allowed to post your "loyal opposition" THAT DOES NOT MEAN we are not going to express our responses........You are NOT deleted .....Its my blog and I'll decide if you cross the line and you have not. You have your point of view and it flies in the face of many of our senses of reality but continue to express it.

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    2. BTW if you were "more careful" with your money and still making mortgage payments......you wouldn't be in this casino.

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  31. Comment from ZH:

    "I continue to be amazed at the success of stock investors vs PM speculators. There's a reason the age-old saying says (a) DIVERSIFY and (b) Don't fight The Fed.

    Had I not started reading ZH last year, I'd have been in stocks and not in PM. ZH may have made its owners richer, but it has not made me richer. But I keep consoling myself with a drink, night after night, that I/we ZH bloggers are soooooo much smarter than the Market or The Fed.

    BTW, just spent the afternoon talking with various bullion dealers and bullion storers, and... the overall picture is: Suppliers are catching up to the initial retail buying wave, which has subsided. Even at these 'low' prices people are buying but no longer panicking like they did the first 3 weeks. There are a lot of "fence sitters", waiting to see this Sideways market move up or down. So, the sideways market has slowed (frozen) the bullion market.

    Only the ppl at the Fed, JPM and GS know if they should buy/sell ETF or buy/sell bullion, since they are the ones to make the rules and set the price. So... back to Hedge & Diversify!
    "

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    1. hehehehe......well budfox now I know your identity.....MDB

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  32. As always great insight, Kliguy and others...I'm lurking..LOL..Thought this might be of interest. http://bullmarketthinking.com/world-bank-whistle-blower-precious-metals-to-serve-as-an-underpinning-for-paper-currencies/

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    1. good to hear from you TB and this could very well occur.....the real power still retains its hold on the actual bullion. They know very well its source of power. It is not called the "money of kings" for nuttin.

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    2. Now where do I recall seeing TexasBlondie before? Earth To Wall Street?


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    3. SilverIsKing...not sure where, but I am still wearing my tin foil hat and still hoarding/adding PMs(physical)(averaging in for 12 years now.). Still hoarding ammo, food, water, etc....:)Still trading the ags. Spending much of my time studying homeopathic medicine, but still playing this crooked game, we call trading.

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  33. I found this from Bill Fleckenstein on the Financial Sense site. Even he admits that all the money printing could continue to push the markets higher.

    I think it is hard for us to understand the concept and power of a "Trillion". You can look at the number written down and say "Yeah, that number is mathematically one trillion", but how do we truly understand the scope of what that number can do?

    Countries are going to print or electronically create TRILLIONS. How are we supposed to know what will happen, and how long it will go on? Personally, I remember the insane euphoria of the dot-com days. Are we there yet?--I say NO,...there is more craziness to go.

    http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/bill-fleckenstein/benign-print-fest-races-on

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    1. I'm certainly with you Doc in not knowing how long it can go on......NO ONE knows with certainty....but I can say that violating Natural Law carries consequences that NO ONE knows....I can only repeat....if you are in the casino/ponzi then ALL paper assets are at peril.....thinking that by playing "their" paper assets provides you safety going forward based upon past performance has always been shown to be a fools game. Economies and Countries are undergoing wholesale slaughter RIGHT NOW....and the numbers are multiplying rapidly....this game is NOT the Japan game of 1990......

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    2. this supports the same premise that you brought up....HIS thoughts are not completely shared by me but overall his tone is correct

      http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2013/5/8_God_Help_Us_All_Because_This_Sure_As_Hell_Will_Not_End_Well.html

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    3. Doctrader - My top projections (June 9) was made early in January. The chart posted added data from Jan-Apr. See also http://www.swingcycles.blogspot.com/2013/01/2013-outlook-geomagnetic-and-bradley.html which I posted in January. Not sure how the EWers arrive at a late May topping date.

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    4. Dawg...I follow your blog...I have learned a lot from following. I appreciate the work you do, TY!

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    5. TB - nice to know my modest efforts are appreciated!!! Hopefully it adds some small piece of info to your efforts to figure out the market. Unfortunately I lack the foresight of a Budfox and cannot contribute more. LOL

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  34. AFFY is friggin going crazy on buy side, fortunes have been made...not by me though...

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    1. good to see you at the table again chuck.....hehehehe....m

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  35. http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2013/05/08/housing-has-legs-says-top-hedge-fund-manager-josh-birnbaum/

    Being a crook is easy in America, enabled by GS, govt. and the Fed to make money on housing downfall, now gets the houses that they drove down for pennies on the dollar while people are on the street..

    Sickening

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  36. Don't know if someone else already posted this but I find this morbidly facinating...

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-08/junk-debt-drops-below-5-yield-first-time-record

    Come on now... can we all just admit the markets are getting beyond ridiculous now? This is evidence that proves it.

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    1. Hubz: If that chart has any truthfulness to it at all, then Budfox is right. We should all be going long on AAPL and ditching the miners.

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    2. I dunno to me it scares me out of equities. Any yield is being so highly sought after that they're hitting silly levels. I know this can and probably will continue to last for a bit longer but geez it's gonna be ugly when the pigs all try to bail at once. Seriously when rates begin to finally rise again it's going to be a nightmare.

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  37. Algos will keep this market up until certain key words and phrases hit the news wire. Then it's over in under 1 minute as the HFT algos are cut loose to pick clean any traders left in the killing fields.

    You know a combination 3 of those words in the April flash crash.

    If you insist on trading, then an end of day cash only position in this environment highly recommended.

    Don't hold Kli's view on paper miners, anybody who really wants the miners physical assets just buys those assets from the paper shareholders, steals them through bankruptcy or nationalization, swaps them for paper equivalent or just Corzine's them.

    Anybody's guess when the combination of words starts hitting the wire, could be next week or next year.

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    1. yup on Paper..... they absolutely can do that... and you are rollin' the dice....when this bear is over the last thing you're gonna worry about is your stock portfolio

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